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This is a full transcript of a recent Twitter Spaces debate between Alex Gladstein and Jaime Garcia about whether or not the President of El Salvador is enacting authoritarian policies.
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Transcript
[00:00:05] Q: I am very excited to introduce our guests today. We will start with hi may Garcia, who is a Salvadoran immigrant who lives in Canada now has written extensive articles on the ongoing presidency as well as their Bitcoin rollout.
[00:00:32] Jamie Garcia: I work for an insurance company up here in Canada, just a regular pleb. You know, just a regular Joe earning money and paying for my bills and saving some sats if there’s any leftover at the end of the month.
[00:00:48] Q: On the other side of the conversation, we are joined by the chief strategy officer of the HRF, who’s written countless essays about how Bitcoin is helping people today. Right now, even though it may not necessarily be in the forefront of how you can use it, as well as the author of just required reading for everyone in the Bitcoin space, check your financial privilege.
[00:01:14] Jamie Garcia: Thanks for the invite.
[00:01:16] Q: I wanted to start by giving you each an opportunity to just sort of have an opening remark about this conversation to establish what side of the coin each of you guys will be discussing.
Then we’re gonna dive into Nayib’s actions, just Nayib’s actions, solely. Then expand that into how his actions are impacting El Salvador and El Salvadorans, and then further expand that into how that’s gonna impact Bitcoin.
[00:02:16] Jamie Garcia: Yeah, thanks. And you know, like for me, you know, I’m hoping, rather than this being a debate, it’s more of a conversation, a dialogue. And so, you know, being Salvadorian and having lived most of my life outside of the country as an exile from the eighties from the civil war, You know, I can definitely acknowledge that I have a lot of not only societal, but financial privilege.
And so, you know, this situation on the ground is quite differently, but I also have been there. I know what it’s like to be there. And I, and I provide perspective of Salvadorian, Salvadorian, who is part of the diaspora, who like many is part of the diaspora, want to see the country progress. And we, many of us feel like Bitcoin’s a way to do it.
Right. So, and you know, looking intently into the developments of how the country’s tackling security individual freedoms, financial freedom. And for me you know, I’m not like some in Bitcoin, Twitter claim, not a status. I’m not a promoter of B Kelly or his government, but I’m definitely a supporter of when things get done.
Right. Do I have criticisms? Of course, but so far I think that I’ll also, there’s a good path and you know, I will continue to support if, if it’s in this path and if it changes, then I will, my mind, I will change my outlook. And I’ll be sure to write about it as well.
[00:03:57] Alex Gladstein: Sorry guys. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I mean, and a lot of my nuance to use on this came from the research and reporting I did last year, which is in a Bitcoin magazine essay called the village and the strong man, which I would encourage. Everyone to check out. At the end of the day, this was all about a handful of really impressive people in the community of Elante who helped get this all off the ground.
And I would, I would really credit that movement as opposed to, to the government. There are a few things that I’d probably agree with that BKA supporters on to start choosing Bitcoin as a second currency, as opposed to some CBDC project or, you know, a Chinese Alliance is, is great. I think that that’s something they deserve credit for presenting an alternative to the IM.
Very good. This is an institution that is, you know, sort of ravaged a lot of the world and exploited it, funneling resources from poor countries to rich countries for decades doing mining with geothermal and volcanoes. Terrific, great idea. Let’s research and implement that potentially selling bonds based on that very interesting idea.
I hope it works out attacking remittances, which are exploitative and you know, too expensive, et cetera. Great idea. Putting El Salvador on the map. I mean, that’s a big accomplishment of que and yeah, obviously no one will be talking about El Salvador, had you not done this. And then finally you know, highlighting the role that the U.S. has had in El Salvador, the devastating role that us foreign policy has had in El Salvador.
These are all things that I would probably, you know, agree with the bouquet supporters on. Then I have disagreements, right? So at the end of the day, you know, the reason I like Bitcoin is, you know, basically because , it’s gonna separate money from, from state. I view state adoption of Bitcoin and corporate adoption of Bitcoin as a, as an outcome of its adoption mechanism.
I don’t think we need to cheer on government’s. You know, that expedites this process. I don’t think we need to cheer on corporations necessarily that expedite this process. I think we should just focus on individual freedom. That’s what Bitcoin’s all about. And, and that’s, that’s where there’s a lot of concern in El Salvador.
I mean, I think what this comes down to probably for Bitcoiners is like, what, what do you, how do. What do you make of the war on terror in the United States? A lot of people listening are probably Americans. I mean, was that a fair trade off to trade off freedom and privacy for, you know, security? In my view, it wasn’t, in my view, the war on terror has been a disaster and it’s like totally, you know, basically lit our civil liberties on fire.
And you know, I think that what Nayib has done is, is, is, is no different and probably for a lot of Salvador, like way worse. I know we’re gonna get into it, but these states of exceptions where tens of thousands of people have been arrested with no trial whatsoever, no legal defense, where minors are treated as adults.
This surveillance state where journalists and activists get sped on through like very expensive software Pegasus these new laws, these foreign agent laws, which, you know, if, if passed would literally confiscate 40% of all foreign income to NGOs and freeze their bank account. If, if he doesn’t like what you’re doing.
These containment centers that he put people in when C’s first broke out where people were being arrested for just wearing face masks and tens of thousands of people were jailed for, you know, a public health issue. And then the fact that he , there were Supreme court justices who were like, no, we don’t like that.
And then he like got rid of them and then he’s prepping for, you know, basically running for life, you know, he wants to be president for life. So, you know, I think there was a way for que to play this the right way. And he didn’t do that. I mean, my, you know, as a closing statement for the opening here, I just would say that I, I think he could’ve brought the Bitcoin movement to Salvador a little differently.
It didn’t need to be necessarily legal tender. It definitely didn’t need a Chivo app. He could have just removed capital gains on it and promoted it in a peaceful way. And then he could have stepped off the stage and not. Prepped to run again and violate the constitution. He could have spent 48 years roaming the world as like a, I don’t know, Bitcoin Coon, and then maybe run again later, according to the laws of his nation, he doesn’t wanna do that.
It’s not about Bitcoin for him. It’s about power and control.
[00:08:17] Q: So I’d like to start first on just some of his actions, Alex, you’ve laid out some of his things such as, you know, removing members of the Supreme court going after businesses or people that don’t necessarily agree with him. We’ve seen a lot of reports about, you know, his tough on crime stance. If you, if I can just borrow something from, from the us, and we’ve seen some of the reports coming out of how much crime is down and how many gang members he’s locked up as well as some journalists who don’t agree with him as well.
Hi, in regards to some of these actions and reports coming out what are, what are your feelings on this and how do you. I don’t wanna say justify, but how do you absorb this information? And I, I’ll just sort of like leave, leave a little tail end and let you complete that.
[00:09:07] Jamie Garcia: Well, lemme just begin by saying that I acknowledge and you know, some of the things that Alex has said, I think that we are in agreement with the first set of his list.
I think where we’re probably gonna disagree a little bit is in terms of the embellishment of some, some of the, the wording that he’s used to, to actually describe some really complex events that have happened in El Salvador and you know, reduced to talking points by mainly his, his opposition.
Right. And one of the things that I think a lot of people don’t know in El Salvador is. The vast majority of media is actually control. And if we’re gonna talk about, you know, Bitcoin terminology, it’s centralized among the ruling elite, the entrenched ruling elite as Alec calls it in his book.
And and they use it as a mechanism to sway public opinion, especially when they see that their interests and their property and their business and, and so on are, are threatened. And and so what happens is that when they’re the ones controlling the narrative, especially to towards international audience then that’s kind of what we hear and we get reduced to, to to these you know, shocking talking points and and of course, You know, the, the moniker of dictator and so on the reality is that for most Salvadorians living in the country, what they have experienced is drastic reduction in insecurity.
Extortion has decreased significantly. People can go out and enjoy the country, which is a beautiful country and and so on. So I think, you know, we have to be careful because not all, not, not the entire story is being told. Alex pointed out like a, a long list of things. , you know, it’s difficult for me to address all of them, but, you know, I can just address the one piece, which is like a lot of these points are being advanced.
By traditional mediums, but traditional papers, traditional ch